Saraki: Our Salaries Will Be Made Public in 2017 Budget

The Senate President, Dr. Bukola Saraki, in an interview anchored by Charles Aniagolu of ARISE News Network, the broadcast arm of THISDAY newspapers, spoke on the relationship between the executive and Senate, the possibility of the National Assembly stepping into the discovery of N13.3 billion discovered by the EFCC, the economy, and the budget of the National Assembly, among other issues. Onyebuchi Ezigbo presents the excerpts:

Let’s begin with the relationship between the Senate and the executive led by President Buhari; is there some kind of face-off between the two arms of government?

Well, I have had the opportunity recently to talk about the face-off and I have said I don’t see that, there is more noise than the actual face-off. I think the relationship now is much better than it was a year ago. I think that judging by our interactions and how we support government’s policies; if you look at confirmation of appointments, I think we are doing close to 90 per cent of executive confirmations, which have been successful. If you look at the relationship with regards to the economy where government has required the parliament’s support for foreign loans they have gotten our support. If you look at the budget of 2017, the process is better than it was in 2016. We are working closer with them on some of these issues, but of course by virtue of our position, by virtue of the presidential system we operate which is basically based on check and balances, there is bound to be friction from time to time. What I tell people is that you can’t judge those one-off issues as the foundation to define the relationship. Definitely there would be cases where the president would send somebody for confirmation and we would say no and there are some cases we would say yes.

I understand the point about checks and balances. But it appears that your rejection of the nomination of Ibrahim Magu as EFCC chair did not go down well with the executive. The vice-president had to set up a reconciliation committee to try to make up with the National Assembly over that.

Let me take the first issue. I don’t think the committee was set up based on the fact that we rejected a nominee. There are many nominees that we have rejected. We must look at this as an institution. We can’t define our democracy based on individuals. There is a process and the process in my view is transparent. The president sent a name, it has come before the Senate and the nominee was rejected and that is it. We have played our own part and I think even the executive is not basing their relationship on that.

So why was the reconciliation committee set up?

As I speak to you, I am not aware of the committee. I think it was announced after a cabinet meeting and since then that hasn’t happened.

Doesn’t that underscore the fact that the relationship is quite frosty because if it was announced and then nothing has been done to follow it up?

No, maybe because on a second thought, the issue is whether the committee is really necessary and secondly, as I keep saying when the relationship in my view wasn’t as good as this, when it concerned major issues like the budget, we didn’t even have a committee then. I think these issues are issues that we would weather through. To me, I don’t think you can define the relationship between the legislature and the executive based on one nominee. We have played our part and we have left it to the executive to play its part and we are addressing, in my view, more important issues.

So what you are saying basically is that there is no face-off?

Face-off is a strong word to use. I think there are one or two issues that are there, but that can’t define the relationship. I think face-off is a strong word to use because of the rejection of one nominee.

The lifespan of the 2016 budget expires on May 5th, which is less than three weeks from now. What is holding up the passage of the budget and will it be ready for implementation by midnight of 5th of May?

It is a process. It is clear that since January, four good months, sometime is required for this process but you can see definitely that there has been significant improvement with the way the executive and the legislative have worked together on this budget. There is less rancour, there is better understanding and I am sure that by the time we come back, the budget would be laid and it would be passed. That is the plan we have put in place and we have held wide consultations and I am confident that it would happen.

Is it true that 44 out of 68 committees in the Senate are yet to defend their budget proposals before the appropriation committee?

No, that isn’t true as of yesterday. Now, what they are doing is just compiling all the reports. Most of the committees have defended their budgets. What they are doing is compilation of all the submissions. The plan is that when we come back on the 25th of April, that week, we should go on to the final consideration of the report. That is the plan. What the appropriation committee is doing now is just checking to see that most of the committees have done their work properly. This is just the house keeping part, which is tedious.

Let me go to another point, which you raised about the National Assembly budget which is quite different. The issue has been lingering for years because in the past and till now people felt that there was no information on the details (of the National Assembly budget) and I promised that when I became the president of the Senate, we would make it transparent and for me we hoped we would have done it for 2016. But we did not have a united Senate and unfortunately we didn’t settle down united as quick as we could. But for the 2017 process, the openness of the National Assembly budget is a done deal. The people now joining in the conversation are really just joining, we have already made that decision that by the time the budget is passed in the next few weeks, that would be seen. In my view, it is to the advantage of the National Assembly because when you hear statements like ‘the National Assembly legislatures are the most paid’, what people do is that they take the budget sum and just divide the amount by all the legislators and base what every legislator gets on that. We must take part of that blame because the process has not been transparent. However, by the time you see what goes into the salaries of aides, management, capital, running cost, actual salary of the legislators, what goes to running their offices, you will see the breakdowns and I think that is when the commentaries should start.

According to the Economist magazine, Nigerian federal legislatures received much higher salaries than their counterparts in wealthier countries. The publication revealed that a Nigerian legislator receives an annual salary of $189,000 which is 116 times Nigeria’s Growth Domestic Product per person and well above what parliamentarians in 29 countries whose data were analyzed by the magazine received. What is your take on this?

That is exactly the point I am making. Those figures are based on the fact that they have taken the bulk of the budget of N115 billion divided by the 469 people and came up with a figure of $116,000. By the time you see the detailed budget, that is why I said the commentaries should wait till the detailed budget is released. You will see what is for salaries, allowances, cost of running the office, cost of management, cost of legislative studies, and you see will the capital budget. So you will know how much the legislators’ salary is and how much he is paid to run his office which he has to retire. But because over the years it has never been made public, people have concluded that ‘if they are not going to tell us I am just going to simply calculate it’. If you look at other countries like the UK and the US, a US senator has close to a million or two million dollars to run his office and nobody adds that as his salary.

So are you saying that you get quite a lot of money to run your office?

No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is because we haven’t broken down our budget.

(Cuts in) But why haven’t you broken it down?

We are on the same side. I have said to you, we are going to do that in a transparent manner. I agree with you and that is why we are committed to doing it and that would be in a few weeks.

Let’s trust what you are saying. Do you also get allowances for car maintenance, domestic staff, constituency work, entertainment, wardrobe and much more, do you get all that?

You get your allowances which is part of your salary that is fixed by the Revenue Mobilisation and Fiscal Commission.

So you don’t get wardrobe allowance?

You do get, but that allowance isn’t different from anybody in the public sector. We don’t make those figures, the figures are from the revenue commission. It endorses salaries for all public sector workers.. Then you have the budget of the National Assembly that has to do with the management, running of offices and capital projects. By the time you see the breakdown, people will have a better understanding and then we can now begin to address what we think. But for now, let me be clear we are not helping ourselves too in this situation, the moment we are transparent, I think people will have a better understanding of things.

We look forward to that but what about something called quarterly allowance that lawmakers pay themselves, something known as office running cost?

It is not an allowance.

But it is named office running cost. At the last count in 2009, this so called office running cost amounted to N192 million per senator per quarter and N140 million for a member of the House of Reps per quarter. Have those allowances increased or decreased?

You see, you used the word allowances and I think that is a misrepresentation, but the figures are not true. As I said, the detail of the budget of the National Assembly will be made public. You have waited over a decade and you will always have me here and that is why I am saying these figures are not true, these figures are being passed around because nobody has had the opportunity to see the budget detail.

So you don’t get quarterly allowances?

They are not allowances. We don’t get quarterly allowances because they are not allowances. You have a budget for management; you have a budget for running cost.

It doesn’t matter what you call it, the fact is that Nigeria is mired by a terrible recession. Workers are being laid off, some have not been paid their salaries. If a senator is getting N192 million for something called running cots, wont that be odious and obscene?

It is not running cost, it isn’t an allowance; there are specific line items and as I said, you will see those line items when you see the details. By the time you see the details, you will have a different picture.

Senator Ben Murray-Bruce once called for a reduction of allowances for the members of the National Assembly which he thought were just absolutely obscene. Do you as president of the Senate support that course?

That has happened. The allowances of the National Assembly was as high as N160 billion (sic) in the last couple of years, three years to be specific but it has come down from N160 billion to N115 billion. So we are sensitive to the issue and that is why we are reducing costs and even in 2016 despite the depreciation of the naira, there was still a significant reduction.

Are you saying that you have taken account of the terrible state of the Nigerian economy and have decided to empathize with the people you serve as lawmakers by taking a pay and allowance cut?

If you hold on to your cost when we are having close to a 250 per cent depreciation, that is a cut, if you look at it from that point of view and that we have been able to do and it is going to be transparent for us to be able to debate.

On the economy, the government has just released its economic recovery and growth plan, which has been broadly welcomed internationally but also roundly criticized for some of the things lacking on it. What do you make of that plan?

I think it is a good plan. I think it is a good starting point. The most important thing is to focus on having a much diversified economy. To try to move away from revenue that is solely based on oil. We have non-oil revenue of just 4.4 per cent of our GDP. We must see how we can increase our taxes, widen the base, and that would help significantly. A plan where you try and reduce domestic borrowing, give enough opportunity to the private sector, take less expensive foreign loans that have clear deliverables. We must also make sure we work hard on the Niger Delta area. There are good things that have come out of that plan. If you remember last year, the Senate came together and held a debate on the economy. One of the strengths of the Senate is that from day one, we have always said that we have a plan; a legislative agenda and that it would be a Senate that is more proactive and strategic, as opposed to just reactive. Our focus has always been on the economy. So some of these issues that the plan covered, I think laying the foundation for recovery and if we can implement largely to ensure that we diversify the economy in the area of agriculture which is key and we ensure that the government’s fiscal policy supports that and that there are no somersaults or contradictions, that will help significantly. I like the fact that the government is also looking at what we can do with our infrastructure. This is where we have supported tremendously. If you look at some of the laws we have put forth, some of the laws that are trying to encourage the private sector participation in infrastructure development. I believe this is where the growth is going to come from.

The problem is that these things have all been said before. The oversight function of the National Assembly comes in here because the big issue of Nigeria has never been about plans but implementation.

But we are doing that. I mean, the implementation. I have said that this Senate is a place where a lot of promises have been kept. For example, where we have the Petroleum Industry Bill at this point has never been to this level. We have got bills that have been laid for over 10 years. The PIB never saw the light of day. We promised that we would pass it but a lot of people said we would not do it but we have done it. There is a bill on the railway sector which is over 50 years, it has never been passed but we have passed that. We have bills that support road maintenance and infrastructure which had never been passed. What I am saying in essence is that these are not just promises, they are promises that we are keeping. However, if we want to improve the environment for doing business then it isn’t just an oversight function, because if someone is going to invest in infrastructure or agriculture, he wants stability. It is a long term project. He wants to see the enabling environment, he wants to see that the law is there that would support this. In the past, we didn’t focus on important laws. What we are doing in the Senate is to focus on the laws that will help small scale and medium businesses. If you look at access to finance we have passed two bills. There is one in the area of agriculture, we have two on secured transactions and a lot of small-scale companies don’t have collaterals, all they have are receipts for their commercial goods. So there has been a lot of focus on those points.

I know that based on what has happened in the past, Nigerians are very skeptical. When we started the PIB, people never gave us a chance. PIB was meant to be an executive bill driven with executive proceeds but we said that we are going to ensure that this 8th Senate is different and we have done it and I am sure that we are going to pass it soon.

With the dust raised over the $43 million recovered from a luxury apartment in Lagos, who do you reckon the $43 million belongs to?

I don’t think I should speculate and say who it might belong to but I think it is the responsibility of the EFCC to come out and tell Nigerians who it belongs to and this whole circus will come to an end. The matter is very simple; the agency that has found this money should just come out with the owner of the money, because it isn’t good when we have different speculations of it belonging to some persons and agencies of government. Whoever it is, we shall determine what our conclusions are but at the moment, this circus must come to an end. I think they owe Nigerians the duty of telling us who this money belongs to. I really believe that the fight against corruption should be institutional and I think we should reduce the sensational aspect of this.

Is it not within the powers of the National Assembly to step in and summon both the EFCC and the National Intelligence Agency?

No, what I am saying is that this matter shouldn’t happen in the first place because it has been badly managed. As a last resort, yes if they don’t resolve it and tell Nigerians who the money belongs to, definitely we will do that but I am saying it could have been avoided, it is a very simple matter.

Do you wonder why the EFCC didn’t monitor that apartment to see who goes in and comes out before going in to grab the money? Isn’t that in some extent a failure in law enforcement in your assessment?

Let me say that there may be a possibility that the EFCC might come before us, so I don’t want to prejudge them, but what I am saying is that Nigerians must know who owns the money (N13.3 billion) to save us all this embarrassment. I believe they should come up quickly and if they don’t, then definitely they would come before the House of Representatives or Senate to explain to Nigerians.

And is that the best way to put the controversy of this money to rest?

If it has to come to that, I think an agency like this should be able to manage the situation on its own.

Do you believe those who say the anti-corruption fight by the president is targeted at members of the opposition and people who are not supporting the Buhari government?

It won’t be fair to say that.

Well how many people in the Buhari APC party in which you are now a member, of course you were a former member of the PDP, have been persecuted or come after for corruption?

But I think again my view on the fight against corruption is let’s not personalise it as being a Buhari fight but as a fight for all Nigerians and the sooner we begin to do that, the sooner we begin to make progress. What are those laws, what are we doing to strengthen the processes. I went to a lecture and somebody said people that are corrupt are very patient, they can sleep for eight years and wait to start corruption. I obviously believe that we are getting it wrong and I think we should try and get a process that is so transparent, the process of the investigation is transparent and people will not believe otherwise. Don’t get me wrong. There are cases like that which are clearly political and because the process isn’t transparent enough, so I think that is what we should focus on quickly.

We have before us at the National Assembly about four bills; one we have referred to as constitutional issues of having a special anti-corruption court that has to go to a constitution amendment committee. The one on whistle blowing is done, it is going to be laid next week, the money laundering bill has been taken back by the executive and I think we only have one and I think the focus on government’s part is to see how to strengthen institutions. As a doctor we learn not to treat the symptoms but the disease and I think what we are doing is treating the symptoms and not the disease.

What is your reaction to President Buhari’s illness and the fact that he extended his stay and never told Nigerians what was the matter?

He extended his stay as he said he needed more time to do more tests and be sure that he was fit to come back. I remember in the heat of it all there were a lot of speculations and if you could play back a lot of comments made by people, a lot of them had jumped into a conclusion and I had an opportunity to see him when I was in London and I made a statement that there was no cause for alarm and the president would be back and that is what has happened.

Well if there is no cause for alarm why doesn’t he tell the people what the problem is?

Maybe the issue isn’t that huge; you and I can’t speak for him; that is a personal choice.

But you are a check and balance institution, you represent the people. Don’t the people have the right to know what is wrong with the president?

That decision is his. Did the government run while he was away? Yes. Is the government running while he is here? Yes. What we should try to do is to focus on those issues that truly in my view that would address the problems of the people. If his health is such that it begins to incapacitate the performance of government, which I don’t think so, and I believe we need to be conscious of that. If you could remember we did a lot of harm with all the speculations and a lot of people said he won’t come back but he did. I really believe that for now that isn’t an issue. What we should address is the problems facing Nigerians today. I think that is the major issue and I will go back to it that we must look at the economy of the country.

Why did the Senate reject a bill that was aimed at eliminating all forms of discrimination against women: the Gender and Equal Opportunity Bill which would have promoted equality for women in marriage, inheritance and education?

Again you have got your facts wrong. It was rejected for the first time and it came the second time and we passed it.

QUOTES

One of the strengths of the Senate is that from day one, we have always said that we have a plan; a legislative agenda and that it would be a Senate that is more proactive and strategic, as opposed to just reactive. Our focus has always been on the economy.